Table Talk with Tony Merida and David Mathis
Originally recorded at Cities Church, St. Paul, MN — August 21, 2025
Full transcript
David Mathis
Here we go here. I get a chance for a few minutes to just do some little preacher to preacher rapid fire. I want to ask some of my quirky questions, my preaching professor questions, and then I'll throw it open for some other questions here. So if you're sitting on something, if you're thinking about that, I'm hoping to give you an opportunity here in a few minutes, and I'll try to dive in, get a little more background on Tony and draw out a few things
Tony Merida
I feel very insecure right now. I've watched countless Ask Pastor John videos, and I'm aware that I'm sitting in the John Piper seat right now.
David Mathis
We'll do what we can. You're ready for this. You studied for this. Maybe we'll get into your doctoral project or whatever, the project you did years ago. Let me pray for us and ask for God's blessing on this few minutes here.
Father, thank you for sending us Tony here for the day. Thank you for the messages that we have already been served by and nourished under from Tony, from Louis. Thank you for this camaraderie and fellowship of brother preachers. Thank you for the fresh encouragement in the gathering, in the seeing of these faces, in the hearing of your word to continue in the work to endure. It's so valuable for us preachers doing the hard work as Tony so clearly outlined there at the beginning. So would you bless even these few moments, the direction you take us, that you'd lead and guide this in its formality and informality of the table talk setting. Would you make this a blessing to these brother preachers, young and old? In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
Let's see. All right. So Tony, am I right to think you've been preaching about 21 years? How often do you preach each year?
Tony Merida
So it's changed this year or last couple years because I'm doing more, a little bit more traveling. When I started Imago Dei, it was somewhere between 38 to 42 Sundays and now I'm down to like 32.
David Mathis
Yeah. And how long do you typically preach for?
Tony Merida
Well, that's also changed through the years. When I started our church, we had one service. We didn't have a lot of programming. I felt the encouragement, empowerment to preach longer than I currently do with multiple services and a bigger church with more educational opportunities and so on. That's a long answer to say. I aim for 30 minutes. I don't always hit 30 minutes. I probably average more like 34, but I'll see the kids turning to look at the clock at about 25 minutes in and he's not going to make it. He's just on point one. So yeah. So it's trimmed. I think some of that's due to just a lot of reps and honing your craft and learning how to be more concise than I used to be. Some of that is I start the prep process way earlier than I used to and I think starting late in the week, I was taking more of a first draft to the pulpit that hadn't been edited adequately. So I don't think the content so much has shrunk as much as
David Mathis
it is probably the conciseness. That's good. I'd love to talk some about your process. You mentioned it there. I don't know if you would be up for giving us a little overview. I know we could double click on this and go hours on it, but some big pieces that might help these brothers thinking through their different patterns. Not that they need to wear Saul's armor, but to give us some specifics on how one brother goes about it. So I've done this also differently
Tony Merida
through the years. I have a process, but how I do it just varies season to season. I have five steps. Study the text. That's obvious. We're just immersing ourselves in the text, understanding it, seeing how the gospel is tied to this text. Second step is unify the theme. So we're identifying in this text what is the big idea, the dominant theme of the text, and that should drive the dominant theme of the sermon. I think that's the key piece, by the way, to clarity is the unified theme. What is it that he's on about? Everybody should know that answer. It doesn't have to be a dynamic sermon, but if it can be clear and people know what the main thought is, the main idea, I think that's important. The third step is to construct an outline that supports that dominant theme. So there you have your points, and your points are not really points. They're really sub points of the big idea, right? And so I try to use as many points as I think the text has and say it in a way that's suitable for my audience. So I don't limit myself, say, to three points. It just kind of depends on the flow of the text, because I'm really preaching one big point, or trying to. Last night I preached on the prayer of Jehoshaphat, and I was trying to drive home this idea of seeking the Lord in dependent prayer. So there's a lot kind of under that, but that was sort of the umbrella. Step four is add what we call in homiletics, right, the functional elements of explanation, illustration, and application. So in each point, I'm at least explaining and applying. I may not illustrate in every point, but I want to explain what needs to be explained, and then try to apply that home. And then fifth, I construct or I write the introduction and conclusion. I like to do the introduction last rather than first, because I want to know what I'm introducing. Otherwise, I may be tempted to twist my text. That's what I used to do as a youth preacher. I had a great story about a cat, and then I'd twist the text to match my cat story. And you really should just kill the cat, and know what you're going to talk about, and then find a way to open it. Now, sometimes the opener comes before the last step of the process, and I don't say, well, I can't think about you right now, opener. You know, you grab it if it comes to you in the process. But that's the general spirit of what I do. I don't think of it, though, in that wooden format. I don't think I'm in step two now. Like a lot of preaching theory and study is instincts, right? You think about these mechanics, but when you are preaching a lot, you're more instinctive in doing those sorts of things.
The way I used to do it was I would, I mean, I had my first church, I had three different sermons. I had Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night. So I was not doing any kind of advanced sermon prep for Sunday morning. It was, I was trying to get to it after the Wednesday night prayer meeting and Bible study. I would usually start Thursday. That was probably my weaker preaching, I think, looking back. Later, I started, when I only had one sermon to prepare a week, Sunday morning, I started preaching, eventually, I started preparing on Mondays. So Monday was writing day. And what I was trying to do was the week before, I would usually Thursday or Friday, I would work through all the exegetical questions of the upcoming text and try to know the big idea and my outline by Monday morning. And I like doing that because I like to compose the whole sermon in one flow of thought. And I like, I call it getting downhill. I liked being able to go downhill on Monday morning. It's also a very edifying process because Monday can be tiring. And just, that was a study day. The elders knew I was going to be doing prep at home. And I would submit a first draft on Slack to our elders. And by the end of Monday, I would tweak it up on Tuesday and edit it. And then the rest of the week, I would just let it marinate, still make tweaks, but they're minor. And I felt like the runway allowed me to preach from the heart. Because what I found is if I were starting later in the week, I was so concerned about what's in my notes and so concerned about missing something that's there. It was just very hard for me to preach from the heart to the hearts of people. And I think it's important to remember that preaching is an oral experience, right? It's heraldic. We're not writing a research paper. We're speaking publicly. And to do that, you really need a sense of naturalness in preaching from the heart. But we need to have some substance. And so, for me, that meant starting early in the week. Now, I start way earlier than that. I'm an advanced sermon prepper. So, I have weeks and weeks prepped. And I did that for a couple of reasons. One was I started working as a VP for SEND and my Mondays got eaten up with preaching workshops and other events and conferences. And I just didn't want to start again late in the week. So, I use the weeks where I'm not preaching two or three weeks in a row. And I need two days to prepare a sermon, not two entire days, but two big blocks of time. And I can get a sermon, I call it 80% finished. And then I move on to the next one. Then week of, I'll finish that 80%. And I can talk about the details of that if you're interested. But that's what I do now. I think maybe the takeaway is just you find what works for you and your season, what you need, and how is it that you can be clear, communicate the word, and do it from the heart. And I've changed season to season. But the way I'm doing it now is probably my favorite approach ever. Because now on Monday, I look at it on my iPad and it's almost finished.
And I just can marinate. And I think application is what you need time to think about that you don't get from commentaries. And if you're waiting late in the week, you're worried so much about getting the text right, you don't have a lot of reflective time on application to think about how we might apply this. So, a lot of that application comes week of, but it comes to me because I've prepped so much already to think about it. Does that get at what you meant by saying
David Mathis
Early on you were preaching your first draft? Yes. You weren't giving it enough time between the main composition moment and then the delivery
Tony Merida
Yeah. And that's mainly because that's how I did my studies in school. Like last minute, we're cramming. And yeah, it's not my preference. I think I'm more concise and it's just much easier to preach from the heart. It's the same thing with writing. You know, someone once said that the secret to good writing is not writing, it's good editing. And the key is like getting that shoddy first draft done. If you can get that done, then you can really get into the making that something. But if you only have the shoddy draft on Saturday night, that's what you got on Sunday morning, right? You don't have enough time. And the Lord can use the shoddiness. Don't get me wrong. Like he has for years. I mean, he works with us. So, praise the Lord for that. But I like having that time for editing.
David Mathis
Okay. I want to come back to opener, but I want to ask about the, you talk about running downhill on Monday when you've got the outline. Can we talk about the outline? I think that's such an important piece. Are you putting that together that it's uphill until the outline and now once you've got the clarity about the outline, now you're running downhill. Now I'm excited. Okay. Talk to me about that. What goes into getting to that outline? What are you trying to do with the outline? It seems to me that's a very important little part of sermon prep, but it's huge. So, linger on that for a minute here.
Tony Merida
I think one is the Calvin anecdote. We study to be simple. I think that for me, outlining isn't about being clever. It's really just about being clear that I want people to be able to really see, oh yeah, that's what those three verses are about. And that's what those four verses are about. And I think in doing that, we're helping people to study the Bible on their own, which I think is very important. So again, the outline for me is supporting the big idea, but I want it to really be rather obvious. And so my outlines are generally pretty simple. And for me, that's my own preference. But I do think it serves people. An outline is almost like how you practice hospitality. People come to your house, you're like, hey, that's where the bathroom is. This is where the vegetarian dish is. And this is where the, you know, et cetera. And there is sort of an expositional hospitality that is, I think, present in good preaching, where people know what we're doing. You know, like they know what we're looking at. Like, what's this about? And how does all this work together? I think, so when you're doing hospitality at your house, you're not trying to be clever, but you're trying to be clear and logical. And I think we're doing
David Mathis
something like that in outlining. With your outline, are you trying to, I guess with the main point, and then with the outline, are you wanting that to address the audience, address the congregation in the moment? Great point, great question. As opposed to like saying, Paul, dot, dot, dot, Jesus, John, David. Is it about the biblical text? Or are you wording the
Tony Merida
point to be to the people? Yeah. Well, people disagree about that. And I like to vary it personally. And in my preaching book, I have like, I think it's 11 ways to outline a text. And I like to look at the text itself and think about my audience and say, like, what's the best way to do that? So you do have sort of the pure exegetical model, which you're just giving headings, essentially. They're not really points or headings to the sections. Then you have sort of a homily approach where it's just a running commentary. And the verses essentially are the outline. You're just like next verse. You do that, I do that a lot at weddings. You know, you may take Ephesians 5, and nobody needs three points, you know, four points in a wedding message. But we're just sort of working our way through it. Or in a funeral, you may take a psalm or something. And then there's sort of a hybrid homily where you give a little structure, but then it's mainly running through the deal. Piper has done for years a lot of question answer, like he'll raise a question. He has a sermon in James 2 that is entitled, Does James Contradict Paul? And he's talking about how James uses the word justification versus how Paul uses it, right?
And I've seen Piper do that for years, just like the, here's the question I want to try to answer. And I'm often saying, I wasn't asking that question, but that's interesting. Like, did Jesus die for us or God? I remember that one. And I was like, okay, okay, let's go. So I think there are various ways. Again, it's back to we don't wear Saul's armor. For me, it's like what is really reflective of the text and then what's suitable to the audience. And I'm not trying to wow people personally with the outline. I think what was really important is just the clarity and quality of substance. Because one of the things that keeps people listening, I think is tension or interest. And some guys try to be overly clever, in my opinion, with tension, and they just kind of lead you along and they don't want to give you too much in the beginning. And it's just like, you know, build up. But I just think people lean in when the content's good. And so it's less about the outline, that's to help. But it's really like the real going from good to great is in those functional elements, the insights of the explanation, and the depth of application. And if you can have some engaging illustrations, that'll add some hot sauce and kind of take it to the next level, I think. So the outline's important. But for me, that's not where I would probably spend the majority of my time. I'm pretty content with just a clear, simple structure, because I don't put all the weight there.
David Mathis
You mentioned application there. Sometimes the pastor will have the tendency or perhaps the conviction to end with application. Do you think through trying to vary that? I do. Put it in different places, spread it all over? How do you think through that?
Tony Merida
Yeah, a lot of the old approach was we save our application for the end. And I think if you do that, the risk is that people will duck. If you do that every week, where it's predictable, they know it's coming, and it's kind of like, okay. But I like to shoot them during the whole deal, you know, like they can't duck. And Keller used to call this running and collected application. So the collected at the end, you're doing that, but it's not the only time they hear the application. And you're not introducing new material at the end. You're collecting what was already present, you know, in the body of a sermon. The same way you do a conclusion or a summary. You're not adding footnotes usually in a conclusion, right? You're gathering up what was just communicated.
Yeah.
David Mathis
Good. Okay. On the opener or in the editorial world, we talk about the lead. What's the lead on the article? What's the lead on the message? You're such a nerd, bro.
Tony Merida
I know. I totally- I'm kidding. No, I love you, bro.
David Mathis
What are you seeking? I love that you said you're resisting spending much time on introduction. If it comes to your head while you're working on point three, capture some notes, whatever. But you want to wait till the end to introduce so that your introduction doesn't twist where you're going. Talk to us more about that. What are you seeking to do in that opening, in that lead?
Tony Merida
Well, I know that Piper is not a fan of introductions. Like I've heard him and Dever argue that point. It's very interesting. Dever usually has great introductions. I would just say there are various ways to do an opener, various kinds of openers. I think what I started doing, I don't know, seven, eight years ago, and I learned this mainly from Dever, is trying to address the unbeliever and believer in the introduction. More than like what the opener is. That matters, but it's like I try to get everybody on the bus in the opener. And you don't have to be overly clever. It's like if you're talking about the church, Acts 2, 42 to 47. You know, you have something that's going to draw believers into this text, giving a reason why they should listen. But I want to throw something out to those who are just exploring the faith or something like that. I use that phrase a lot. If you're here and you're just exploring the faith. And that's a frequent experience at our church. People are doing that. They've never been to church for the, you know, one time before. Like we have a lot of mature believers, but a lot of unbelievers. I would say something like, hey, you may be turned off by the church, by stories you've heard in the church. I want you to see like what the Bible says that the church ought to be, because it's really beautiful and compelling. And so this is a great Sunday for you to be here, right? I use that line a lot. This is a great week for you to be here. And then I just make up a reason why it's a good week for them to be here.
And, but I, when it comes to exposition, I think that one of the dangers is like outsiders come in and they have an assumption. This is just for insiders and they feel disconnected early on. And I think it's important to try to bring them in. Now you don't have to do it always that explicitly. You can do that through story. You can do that through film, through art, through music. I like quoting music. Not everybody does, especially in the reform tradition. I had a guy just really criticized me one time for quoting the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. I'll never forget it. And I'm trying to do, I think, a little bit of what Paul does, Mars Hill, in quoting the poets. You know, our people today are not reading poets. My people aren't, mostly. They're not reading Nietzsche either, but they're listening to, you know, whoever the pop stars are, right? Taylor Swift or whoever. And you don't have to immerse yourself into that world. Just have to keep your ears open. And I hear stuff all the time that are like, man, that's a counter gospel. Or that's, some songs are just dying for you to use them in illustration. You know, Shaboosie, he has that song, Good News. I wish I had some good news. I'm like, well, we got you, bro. We got, you know. And people who know nothing about the Bible, the unbelievers who are there, they can connect with that. And I think anything that we can give them, I don't want to be too long in an introduction. I think it needs to be like the porch on a house. It's a small porch, but it's inviting. It's welcoming. And generally speaking, I just think introductions are woven into creation. The sun doesn't come up immediately and just, wow, you know, like there's a slow, steady sunrise. Most things in art and life have an introduction. And so, I think that's generally the way people think. So, I try to vary what I might do. So, I'm an athlete, sports guy. I have to watch that all my illustrations are not, you know, sports and that kind of thing.
I like quotes sometimes. The reason the opener is also important to do at the end is like, your sermon may be really dense one week. You don't have much time at all to really spend on an introduction. That's me this Sunday. I got Paul at Mars Hill. It's just a lot in that sermon. And so, my opener is going to be really short. But there are other weeks I may have more time. There's probably more than you wanted, but just processing out loud.
David Mathis
And I love the little summary of like, I want to get everybody on the bus.
Tony Merida
Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you brought him up … Lloyd Jones would start like a doctor with the problem and the text was a solution. And that's the same idea that I'm thinking about with the unbeliever is like, what is it that's being addressed here? I use the example of the church and just identifying sort of a common problem that unbelievers may have and trying to show why this is significant.
David Mathis
I mean, you did that here for us when you talked about the hard work of preaching and it being labor. And just in like, just when I was totally convinced it's hard work. And then you said something else that made it harder work and something else. I mean, like we got a problem set up and that was really helpful. So it sounds like maybe you're doing a manuscript with this work and typing it out. Do you want to, you want to wax any here for us on manuscript, extent, strengths and weaknesses, how you wrestled through that over your 20 years?
Tony Merida
Yeah, I've done that differently through the years. I've always, since seminary, I should say, I wrote a manuscript, but what I've actually taken to the pulpit has varied through the years.
When I speak at youth events or college events, I'm often preaching sermons I'm familiar with, and I need less material and I'm really working hard for eye contact and engagement. And so I may just have a post-it note and just do my thing. In the church where it's new sermons, it's also not the pressure. People know me. I know I'm not the only place they're going to get content that week. And I don't feel the weight of being so engaged with eye contact and so on. So I basically write what I call a bulleted manuscript. And so I do colors. The colors only make sense to me. They don't make sense to anybody else. And I start every sentence on the left-hand column with a bullet. And I do that because my eyes are looking in the same place every time I look down. If I start a sentence in the middle, I can get really confused. And so I don't have any margins. Donnie will tell you I'm a marginless preacher. I take all those margins. Nobody needs margins. And so everything's right here. It's one full page. It gives me less pages, less scrolling. And that's what I do. So usually points are red. Illustrations are blue. Highlight stuff I don't want to miss, that kind of thing. The blue helps me also sort of set up my introduction to the illustration. I know when it's coming because it serves as a bit of a change and dynamic as you're doing an illustration. And so I don't want to ever be surprised, oh, I've got an illustration there. The colors kind of help me prepare for that delivery of the illustration. So now I take that up. But there have been times where I've been asked, for example, to write commentaries, First and Second Kings. And I'm like, man, I don't know.
Do I write the commentary chapter? Which is different because you're writing for a reader. What do I do? There I was really just kind of riffing. I was preaching without notes. But I've been in it a lot to write a full chapter or whatever. And I don't know. Donnie could tell you whether or not that was any good. But there was a season where I was preaching without notes, but I was writing commentaries. So it's all varied through the years. But now what I do is what I like because it's sustainable. I do 14 Helvetica font, 10 pages with the text embedded in the notes. I preach from pages. And if I had another three or gave myself another three to five hours, I could probably internalize it and just have a post-it note and preach it without notes. But that's another day of work that I just don't want to give. I'm fine just having notes and trying to
David Mathis
Preach with notes without being noticed. Is there anything at Bethlehem, Cities Church, TCT Churches, we're very much kind of a manuscripting culture. You may have seen some of those manuscripts that set the tone for that. Are there ways that you're trying to account for the dangers or excesses of manuscripting to make the moment more real and engaging?
Tony Merida
Yeah, I think the key is like being okay and being able to preach on your feet. So there are going to be moments. I mean, this happened last night, Brian and Donnie's church, just like stuff that's not in my notes. And just the Lord gives you thoughts and gives you ideas. And sometimes you want to linger somewhere. I didn't know that was going to land like that. There are even moments where I'm like, man, my point two and three is not anywhere near as good as this one. And they're really there. So it's like, what do you do then? Or do you have the ability to linger there for a moment? It's that sort of thing. So I just would say don't be enslaved to the manuscript. It's a tool, but it's not the end all. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
David Mathis
Thinking back, we got young guys in the room, a lot of young guys here. Thinking back to when you were getting going as a preacher. It was terrible. Just terrible. You continued, you kept learning. Any thoughts on what you needed to hear most in that first five years, that first 10 years?
Tony Merida
What Shaddix used to say, we would meet with him. This is a great mentoring model, by the way. This is a free one. He had 12 guys. We called it the Emmaus Road Group. And we would all come. Guys would bring their wives. I was the only not married guy. And we would have dinner. And then the ladies would go. I don't know what they did, but they went somewhere. And the guys would watch one of the sermon. At that time, it was a VHS, one of our sermons. Somebody was up each month. And then we would reconvene for dessert. The whole night was about three hours, four hours. And it was a blast. I just looked forward to it every month. His wife was an amazing cook. It was so fun. And I still remember watching my VHS, and I was so nervous having these 12 guys look at this sermon of mine. And my nickname is T-Bone.
And I remember him saying, you need more confidence, T-Bone. You need more confidence. He's like, you have great material. And I did. I was insecure. And that's what he was saying to me all the time. You need more confidence. So early, early preaching was, I need more content. I need better content. I did not grow up with exposition. I mean, that's why I went to study with Shaddix. I was like, that's what I need to be doing. I don't know how to do that. So he set me on a trajectory that I'm still on. And that's why I'm incredibly indebted to him. But yeah, I think there was that early on. I needed to work on everything, though. I mean, there was nothing that I didn't need to work on. I needed to enunciate better. I needed everything from outline, all of it. I was a work in progress. And then I started preaching in 2001 at a youth camp. I preached every day for 10 weeks, morning and evening. And I learned a lot through that. And I did that same camp another three, four summers in a row. And out of that, I got a lot of speaking engagements from those churches.
And that's really where I honed my craft. But I mean, we're into a couple hundred, 300 sermons before I ever felt like, you know, so it's a painful journey. Some guys are good from the jump. I mean, it's maybe they're just smarter than I was, or they came to ministry later in life, or they're naturally good speakers or whatever. But yeah, it was a process. And it still is. I mean, like I said, we're always growing. But early on, I took a lot of dings.
David Mathis
And yeah. I think I remember Keller saying you need about 200 to find out who you are as a preacher. Yeah. You talk about honing the craft there. Yeah. Sometimes we talk about a preaching gift as if it just falls from heaven or doesn't. Yeah. And would you speak into that for some of these younger guys who feel like, I have some aspirations in my heart. I don't know if I have the ability. Does that mean God just didn't drop the ability on? Is this an ability to cultivate? Is there a craft to be honed? And how would you have young guys orient on that? I mean, all of us in the room as preachers, but young guys in particular.
Tony Merida
It's a great question. I mean, yeah, I think preaching is both gift and skill development. So my responsibility is to develop everything God has given me. But it's not, it's not, I shouldn't be my expectation to have the same level of gifting that someone else has.
I mean, I've taught preaching classes many times where, you know, students have asked me, like, do I really need seminary? You know, like Spurgeon didn't go to seminary. I'm like, but you ain't Spurgeon, right? Like, they're like, Matt Chandler didn't go to seminary. Well, you're not Matt Chandler's, you know, like there's a certain gifting that God gives people. I mean, just look at church history, guys who did not have formal training that the Lord used mightily. There's a certain unction and gifting that we just need to acknowledge that there's a lot that's mysterious in preaching that we can't quantify. That's really hard to, why is that so powerful? Or, you know, but with that said, I do think preaching is science and art. Like we need to keep learning the science of exegesis, the science of seeing Christ naturally in the scriptures, but there's an art to how we're saying things, how we're arranging our material, how we're presenting ideas, how it all is coming together in a mosaic, you know. That's a journey of a lifetime, that learning process of skill development, which is why these workshops matter and why I encourage even seasoned pastors, I do this myself, to read at least one preaching book every year. I just think you'll glean something somewhere from a preaching book. So, I would say to the younger preachers, just understand that. Don't compare yourself to other guys. Some guys are going to be incredibly gifted. Be faithful with what the Lord has given you and try to be as best
David Mathis
As you can with what God has given you. Yeah, all right. So, a preaching book once a year at least. Some to recommend or some that have shaped you deeply. You mentioned Ash on the priority of preaching earlier. I love Christopher Ash. I didn't realize he had a preaching book, so I ordered that off Amazon. A lot of my early quotes came from Ash, yeah. He's a good brother. He's fantastic.
Tony Merida
He has a great commentary on the Psalms, and then he has a companion on teaching the Psalms. So, it's a preaching book just on how to preach the Psalms. …
David Mathis
Key influences or who would you toss out there and commend for these preachers to read?
Tony Merida
I probably wouldn't surprise most of my brothers here in the room with my list. Lloyd Jones, Preaching to Preachers, is a must. John Stott, Between Two Worlds. I'm a huge Spurgeon fan, so anything you can read from Spurgeon on preaching is helpful.
Piper, Supremacy of God in Preaching, Chapel, Christ-Centered Preaching, and Goldsworthy. Those are two keys, I think, on understanding the biblical narrative ….
Ash's book, The Priority of Preaching, is a small little book. And the whole argument is basically from the book of Deuteronomy.
I was talking to Lewis about it. He brings up how the people had the law, but Moses was still to preach it. It's kind of like Romans, right? I just talked about that. So, I like what he's doing in that book. The book, Saving Eutychus, there's some interesting anecdotes in there
Tony Merida
Phil Jensen has a book called The Archer and the Arrow. He has a great illustration about the Mona Lisa that I use a lot. It's really good. You know, it's unfortunate, but there are guys that no longer have a ministry or their ministry, they went, they experienced some scandal, moral scandal. So, I won't mention a couple of those books, but some of them are popping in my mind. They were very formative for me. Shaddix's books were probably the most formative. I wrote my dissertation on Piper. So, I've immersed myself in Piper. Keller, in the last 10 years and prior to his passing, was really instrumental in my preaching to unbelievers. So, he didn't write a ton on preaching, but his preaching book is really good. Those are some that come to the top of my head.
David Mathis
All right. I want to get back to the, well, let's go here now, quick, on preaching being a life skill, a lifetime of learning, anything you're consciously working on right now. Not that you have to always be consciously working on something. I'm making an assumption. Maybe you are, maybe you're not, but anything that you're working on now or recently?
Tony Merida
We just preached to the book of Genesis, and that was really tough sledding through a lot of Genesis. So, I would just say preaching from different genres. This past couple of years, we did 1 Corinthians, Song of Songs, Genesis, and I was like, man, why are we killing ourselves? It was a heavy lift. So, I'm like, we're doing Ephesians next. So, yeah, that's part of the preaching is one thing. What I really love is the content. You know, like I love exegesis. I love getting into the text. And so, most of my study is more like a New Testament or Old Testament scholar. Like, I just want to study thoroughly. So, I'd read the preaching book a year. I listen to guys do lectures on preaching, but what I am more interested in really are like scholars and experts in particular books of the Bible and just learning from them. That's what I like the most.
David Mathis
I think the first I heard of you is when you were working on the project on Piper. So, this is probably just more than 15 years ago. Maybe, is this in 06, 07, 09 in that area? I remember you sending the volume to John of the published dissertation. And so, what were some of the key gleanings there from that season, having that focus of study?
Anything you think back on, it's like, oh, I gleaned that in the season of kind of steeping in Piper?
Tony Merida
Here's an interesting and encouraging anecdote from that. I met Piper for the first time DGM conference, or Bethlehem Conference, and I said, hey, I'm Tony Merida. You don't know who I am. I'm all sweaty. I'm so nervous talking to John Piper. And like I said, I just want you to know I'm writing my dissertation on you. And he goes, please take recent sermons. And I was like, that's a good, that's good because nobody needs to listen to my old sermons. I'm glad they were pre-internet, man. And then we went on and had a conversation about what I was doing. And I really didn't set out to write on Piper. What I was trying to write on was how to integrate biblical theology with expository preaching, which is really how to do Christ-centered preaching from the whole Bible. And so, I needed a methodology, and I used Brian Chappell's methodology, and I needed a representative preacher to see if he was practicing Chappell's theory. Chappell was one of the three books at the time that Piper recommended at DGM on preaching. And so, I had a tight connection there. And so, I analyzed 108, I think it was 108 sermons from six genres of literature from Piper to see how he preached Christ from all of scripture. And one of the problems of the study is that Chappell actually goes all the way to the ledge but doesn't jump over. Like he says that a theocentric sermon is a Christ-centered sermon, where Goldsworthy would say one of the main questions of analyzing a sermon is how did it testify to Christ specifically. And Chappell, you know, I've talked to him about this before. He basically says, well, I'm assuming that if you're being redemptive and being theocentric, God-centered, you will preach the gospel. And I'm like, yeah, but you didn't say that in the book. And so, when I analyzed Piper's sermons, there were several actually from the Old Testament that did not give strong reference or any reference a few times to Christ. But they were theocentric, they were God-centered, of course. And then later he tightened that focus, you know, like even the mission statement at Bethlehem was added like through Jesus Christ. And there was a level of specificity that he was given there. So, I think if I would have used Goldsworthy to analyze Piper, it would have been a little different. So, I don't know where that needs to go. But I learned a lot, I would just say, just by, I read a ton, all of those sermons. And it was interesting. I had not heard an expositor in a conservative tradition talk about justice. It was like a new thing. Like a lot of his stuff in Isaiah, orphan care, racial reconciliation. Now, they weren't dominant themes, but they were there enough where I was like, I've ignored a lot of this. I haven't really paid attention to this. So, that was really interesting. More than anything, they were just deeply edifying. And, you know, I was already influenced by Piper, but that was a wonderful experience to finish it.
I wrote it during Katrina. I was in New Orleans and I had to live in like six or seven different places. My wife and I, we bounced around and it was a wild season to write a dissertation. So, I was glad when it's over, really, because a good dissertation is a finished dissertation.
David Mathis
All right. So, again, with younger guys in mind, what might you say to a younger guy who aspires? The Holy Ghost fire, shut up in their bones. They're ready to preach and they're young and nobody's asking them to preach yet. Advice?
Tony Merida
Yeah, been there. I mean, I would take every opportunity you can. You might be surprised what you find out there. Prisons, elderly homes. You'll be surprised what's out there. Now, you've got a YouTube audience. I'm not necessarily suggesting that, but I'm not suggesting it either. It is amazing what Gen Z and below, where they go for content. And it's a lot of YouTube, as you know. We just were having talks about this with TGC, like TGC focusing more attention on YouTube because of where people are going for content and information. I mean, I didn't have that. We didn't have an internet you could preach to. And even if it's just 12 people, at least you're honing your craft and saying something, right? I preach into audio cassettes, trying to learn how to practice. Like I wasn't preaching to anybody. I was just trying to learn how to communicate. I remember reading the Billy Graham biography, just as I am, that he was preaching out in the woods. And he'd come back and his friends were like, did the squirrels get saved, Billy? I think the point is like, be okay with humble beginnings. I never dreamed the Lord would give me opportunities. He's given me, not in my wildest imagination. I grew up in a tiny, small town in Appalachia. And I learned to preach in a church. My early preaching, I had no notice that it was more of an independent fundamentalist kind of church. And the pastor would get up and he would say, how many of y'all want to hear brother Tony preach? And everybody would go, amen, amen. Brother Tony, you come on and preach. No notice. And I would just preach. Be ready in season and out. Yeah, yeah. So I would, I remember one time it was around Christmas and I'd been leading some college guys through the book of Job. And I decided I'll just do that. That's where I've been. And the sermon went like 12 minutes. I was like, that's all I got. And he came up behind me and like finished the sermon.
He just like kept preaching on, I know my redeemer lives and shall stand at that ladder day. So humble beginnings. Disciple now is in trailers. You know, I've preached in so many places and I'm thankful for all of that. So take what you can get.
David Mathis
Some young guys want the mic but nobody's given it to them yet. Other guys, they're aspiring to preach and they're scared to death of public speaking. What would you say to that guy torn between I aspire to do this and a part of me doesn't want to do this? Yeah, I think that's a good place to be actually.
Tony Merida
There should be a desire to do it, but also a trepidation about what we're doing. A humility about what we're doing. You know? Yeah. What was the first part of your question?
David Mathis
The guy who, he wants to preach, but he's fearful of public speaking. That part. Yeah.
Tony Merida
I was thinking about Luther. He said, you just imagine people in front of you are blocks of wood. Luther sometimes apparently, believe it or not, felt that kind of trepidation. I don't know what I would say. I didn't, that wasn't what I struggle with. I was a senior president and played sport. I was very comfortable speaking, but it was more of, I don't want to get the text wrong. And it was the weight of what we were doing.
I think you'll just get over it. You really just need to keep doing it. Piper talked about being afraid to even pray in public and he did okay.
David Mathis
You keep pressing in. That's right. All right. I got one more, then open it up here. Team preaching. What do you think about that? Do you do it? What are the Tony Merida’s thoughts on team preaching?
Tony Merida
I'm a big fan of that. I'm a big fan of plurality of elders. I think New Testament's a big fan of that. You've got, I think there's strengths early on. We say to our church planters, like I'm a fan of team planting. So more than one elder, if you can't plant. Maybe early on, it's more one dominant voice for clarity. But over time, if you can flatten that out and share the pulpit, I just think there's a lot of benefits to that. You kind of guarding against the cult of personality, hearing it from different voices, the same message. I think if you're doing exposition, the focus becomes on the text and not who's preaching. And I think that's healthy.
If you want to have some kind of biblical diversity, I think the pulpit is very important that some of that is reflected. There are many, many advantages, I think, to plurality and shared pulpits. I know a lot of guys have elders, but they don't have shared pulpits. I think if that lead guy leaves, I think the continuity is much easier for the church to keep on going without collapsing. I'm not probably the majority opinion on this with a lot of my peers, but I'm a big fan. I mean, where we're at now is my favorite time in our life of our church, and I'm 30 to 32 weeks. But we've got really good guys too. I mean, so it really depends on your team. And some of your guys may not be ready for that amount of reps, but you could still... I think it's important that they see other guys are preaching, not just when you're on vacation. Like when you're there and you're part of the church taking in the word, I think that's healthy. So I would advocate for that. I think we've had a model for preaching that's kind of Moses off the mountain and even in study, right? Where it's isolated and you come say, thus says the Lord, where I think the New Testament is more of a plurality of elders and there could be a lot more communication and dialogue about the text and the sermon. There's a shared ministry of the word that all the elders are having. And working it out may look differently, but I think that sharing is really important.
David Mathis
That's good. All right. … Would you, I ask you to close us in prayer. And one thing that's exciting about this gathering for us is to strengthen current preachers and then to keep investing in the next generation of preachers in the Twin Cities. And would you pray for these men in their continuance, perseverance, joyful perseverance, and that seeds here would be sown and grow up, that the future preachers would be in this room that would be God's calming, non-anxious Christian hedonistic presence in the Twin Cities. Absolutely. Absolutely. Father,
Tony Merida
Thank you so much for what we've learned and experienced today. First, I just would pray for the word we heard from Lewis, that our great aim would be your glory. Even this Sunday, Lord, even this day, may your glory always be uppermost in our affections. We also pray, Lord, for our leadership outside of the pulpit, Lord, that credibility would be established outside of the pulpit, that we would live before you and not just perform, Lord, or treat the pulpit in a wrong way. Help us to be men as said of Ezra, that he devoted himself to the study of the word and to do it and then to teach it. May we be doers of the word and not forget what we looked at when we look in the mirror of your word, but be changed by it.
And Lord, we know also that a lot of our impact is going to happen after we're gone. And it may come through our children or children in our churches. And I just pray you would give us a vision for raising up a new generation of investing in not just those who are ready for leadership development now, but for those who are new Christians, Lord, that you would just give us a vision for your gospel to go forward in generations to come. So to do that, Lord, we need to crucify ourselves and our agendas and our egos and be thinking about the needs of others and the needs of future generations. And so grant us much grace in all of these ways. And I do pray for the work of the gospel in the Twin Cities, Lord, as the seed of the gospel is planted, that it would bear fruit. Thank you for these brothers who are here. Again, we pray for their great faithfulness and that they will continue into the great work to which you called us. And we thank you that we have the privilege of doing what we're doing. And we want to proclaim Christ until we see Christ. And I pray you would grant us grace until that day. In Jesus name. Amen.
